la_vie_noire (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
la_vie_noire) wrote2010-03-28 03:25 pm
la_vie_noire) wrote2010-03-28 03:25 pm
Entry tags:
Heh, it wasn't headdesk-worthy this time
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif){kind=small}
isiscaughey speaks some truths in Only Men Are Allowed To Be Perfect.You know, I'm disturbed by how often the male characters who treat people (especially women) like crap are the fandom darlings. They become the woobie who can do no wrong, because he's deep, he has layers, he's had bad things happen to him, he's misunderstood (especially by all those evil female characters). They often have huge communities devoted to them and metric tons of fic describing how wonderful and perfect they are. I'm not trying to criticize people for loving the characters they love. We all have our preferences, and deeply complex characters are interesting, and often feel more real.
What's really bothering me here are the gender politics that go on in fandom, and the double standard between the way female characters are treated versus male characters.
Let's take Tony DiNozzo from NCIS. Yes, I like him too. He is a complex character, he's had some wonderful moments of heroism, and he has struggled with some tough times in his life. But let's be honest: he's rude, he's dismissive, he bullies people, he objectifies women constantly, and he also tends to blame women ("it's always the wife "). Before anyone jumps in to accuse me of misunderstanding poor Tony, let's take a step back and deconstruct things a bit.
Take some time and really, truly, and honestly think about this: if Tony was instead a woman, let's say Tonia, what would you think about her? When she constantly objectified men while simultaneously dismissing and blaming them, how would you feel? When she bullied, belittled, and tormented Tim, would it seem just as funny (because, after all, she really does love Tim like a brother, right)?
Well, it mostly takes into account white cis women vs white cis men (or racially privileged characters inside the show in question), I have to admit the Rose Tyler example made me twitch because all the people I know who dislike Rose do so due to the contrast/opposition the show and the fandom made with Martha. But I admit it, this is due to my circle, I don't doubt Rose is victim to misogyny (comparing her to the Doctor, for example) inside the fandom. (Heck, it's not like I haven't seen it happen in hundreds of other fandoms, the woman who is called a Mary Sue. Analogous male characters? Extremely popular).
The OP also said:
But what does it matter if we bash female characters? They're only fictional, after all. I'll just say this- I don't think it's a good idea to spend a lot of time disparaging and despising women, even if they aren't real, as that's the sort of thing that can become a habit.
And it's a lot more than that. Since the she already made a point how people will perceive a character differently (and will be portrayed differently) due to gender, I think it's pretty safe to say that the "hating women, loving men" reflects (and feedbacks) into gender perceptions. Yeah, gender, race, ability, sexual orientation, in our society those things aren't overlooked. No matter how much "those things don't matter to you," oh special snowflake, they have an impact.
PS: Gente del chan! Ayer mi internet murió. Como que toda la noche! ;;
no subject
¿Aprovechaste para estudiar?Fue como triste que te cayeras cuando Nina estaba recceando SaiMono. xD Yo soy mala para reccear cosas, pero puedo decir que la protagonista, Shuurei, tiene el equivalente en fuerza emocional que Balsa tiene física. Y es la primer mujer que pasa el examen para ser oficial del imperio (porque es a la primera que dejan presentarlo) y tiene que enfretarse a todo el aparato patriarcal. Es muy interesante.
no subject
YAAAY! <33333
no subject
... and there are some of us who just don't like her. *shrugs* I don't dislike Rose because I think Martha is so much better, I don't like Rose because she ended up boring me and then the show kept insisting that she was the best thing ever after she'd managed to bore me.
Like you said, I don't doubt she's been a victim of misogyny (and classism!) in fandom. I've seen people give very, very stupid reasons for disliking her. But, you know. It is possible to dislike a female character just because you don't like her.
Then again, there's a difference between "disliking" and "bashing her and comparing her with male characters". But posts like this don't often take that into account (this particular one does, though). It's like... no matter who you like or dislike, you always have to end up justifying yourself.
no subject
Female characters are a lot less popular than male characters in most fandoms, female character that are very much like other idolized male ones in a lot of cases. So when you see characters like Rose which are just hated because, and then, I don't know, characters like the Doctor are extremely idolized, or whoever other "perfect" male character is there (to be honest, I know people will come and tell me how flawed the Doctor is, so I don't know)... we have a problem. And yeah, my individual choices may have nothing to do with it, but we still have a problem.
no subject
What I'm trying to say is that when talking about this kind of thing in fandom, a lot of the "louder" parts who consider every character they like perfect and every character they dislike horrible are not always the norm. But I think what makes me uncomfortable about the reasoning for liking or disliking a character is that a good character isn't necessarily a good person, and viceversa.
It always sounds strange to me when people start naming virtues or flaws as reasons to like or dislike a character because... that doesn't really have to do with them being likeable or charismatic as characters. A character can be a great person and really, really boring to watch/read about. ETA: and I forgot a key sentence, ha: A character can be a horrible person and still very charismatic and fun to read/watch.
So saying people "forgive" a character's flaws when they like him or her just doesn't ring true to me. I know there are crazies out there who do it, like all those extreme Snape fans who insist that he has no flaws at all. But it's entirely possible to be ridiculously fannish about a character while seeing him or her as a flawed person.
The short version: I think liking or disliking characters and judging them as people are completely different things.
no subject
And well, this is personal, but I also don't think our likes and dislikes or what we consider attractive (of this I'm sure) aren't that independent of society and culture or what we are taught to find attractive. But of course, that doesn't mean is wrong to like or dislike something, or that that would make it less valid.
no subject
Oh, yes, this I agree with. Especially because I can think of a lot of cis, white men assholes written to be charismatic, while most assholes who aren't cis, white men are supposed to be hated. (The only exception I can think of off the top of my head, for a Western canon, is Azula from Avatar, who is female and Asian and extremely charismatic.) The problem is already there in the way they're shown to us.
And I do agree about our likes and dislikes not being independent of society, of course. It'd be silly to ignore that. ;) What I mean is... it's possible to separate what you like/find interesting in a character from what is a good or bad trait in a person. Silly example: I know Indiana Jones is a sexist pig, I'd hate him in real life, but... he's still fun to watch. And in fiction you also have to take into account tone and point of view and a lot of things that affect how you see a character apart from their own virtues/flaws.
no subject
I can make examples with Buffy right now, but they may be spoilering, but yeah, I don't think writing is all that there is to it. But yeah, it's a lot also, and male characters are more likely to be written as "sympathetic and charismatic" in their assholery. Which isn't something devoid or problems also. And yeah, people can find them attractive for the writing or whatever reason, but I can't stop seeing it as a problem when you have these traits that are supposed to be forgiven or make excusable/attractive in asshole cis white men not in one, not in two, but in a big number of fiction out there. So it may be fiction, so you may like it, but that doesn't mean it's disconnected with reality. I think that was the point I wanted to make here.
no subject
I agree. I didn't mean to take responsibility for the reader. It's a problem on both sides, I think.
but I can't stop seeing it as a problem when you have these traits that are supposed to be forgiven or make excusable/attractive in asshole cis white men not in one, not in two, but in a big number of fiction out there
I understand your point, but I think the part where we're disagreeing here is that I think those traits aren't supposed to be forgiven or excused. This is what I'm trying to say with the difference between a charismatic character and a good person. What about over-the-top villains, for example? We're not supposed to find their actions excusable but they can still be written to be interesting or fun. I know the line blurs more with flawed heroes, but there's a difference between "you're supposed to like this character" and "you're supposed to ignore/forvige their flaws".
no subject
No, you can find someone fun for whatever reason, I like some villains, I like some assholes. They don't tend to be white cis men, but I like assholes, and a lot of the things they do aren't excusable at all. But that wasn't my point, nor the OP. I think the point was about politics, and how they affect the way we perceive a character in question (and, as you added, how they are written). And yeah, I think you could say that "how white cis (these are of my discussion) men who do act like assholes are loved by the fandom as a whole" is part of the discussion as in "politics matter," also because non-white, non-male, non-cis characters aren't treated in the same way, and also because I can think how "white cis men" acting certain ways could be considered attractive. But we are talking about politics.
It would be silly for me to not say they don't matter when in the anime/manga fandoms I frequent all you need for a character to be popular is to 1) be a pretty cis male (white or Japanese) 2)be a powerful cis male (white or Japanese). In fandoms where the demographic is supposed to be older it may change, but for younger people? That's what they get from the industry.
no subject
But it's not that I disagree that politics matter. Or that I think fiction happens in a vacuum. I just get uncomfortable when the assumption behind "character X is popular" is immediately "because he's male" and not "because he's well written/funny/charismatic/whatever". Or even "because most male characters are written as more interesting than most female characters", which is part of the problem too. Yes, statistics exist, but we don't know what all those people are thinking and what their reasonings are.
... I guess I put a lot more faith in individual people.
no subject
But if you said that the reason that in general cis white male characters are more popular than non-white, non-cis, non-male characters is because they are better characters( or that even the fact that they are mostly better written, or more written) have nothing to with they being male, cis, or whatever... uhm, well. I disagree.
ETA: I think I get you. You know, but it may be part of the same old discussion of "it's not what you are, but what you do." I think that in this case we could be talking that some things are problematic no matter the intend. So when you have a sexist society, and in the fiction of this sexist society most people like male characters over female ones, and you have that in this sexist society even females with the same traits that certain male ones are bashed, while their male counterparts are not, well, you know you have a problem. So when I say, hey I don't like this female character, and I don't like this particular male one who is just like this female one so I will be fine if I start hating this female one because I just don't like the male one and we are the same and... etc. But see, I'm probably in the minority who dislikes the male, while most people dislike the woman who is exactly like the other one. So yeah, my reasons may be my own, and heck, maybe no one else thinks looking at gender! But you know, the reality tells you something is happening.
no subject
Yes, I think this is what's making us disagree. Because we do agree about, well, most of what we've been saying.
Or rather, I disagree about it in the particular case of liking fictional characters because, well, obviously there are things that are damaging even if you mean well. Hmm, let me see how I put it.
I know that the problem exists. I know that there are many people who perceive female characters differently from male characters and hold them to different standards. You can tell because many times the way to bash a female character is to call her "a bitch" or "a slut" or even "a Mary Sue". What makes me uncomfortable is the assumption that every time, or even most of the time, people are basing who they like or dislike on gender.
So when I say, hey I don't like this female character, and I don't like this particular male one who is just like this female one so I will be fine if I start hating this female one because I just don't like the male one and we are the same and... etc.
I... don't really understand what you're saying here. That it's never okay to hate a female character?
ETA: I mean, maybe people are basing it on gender. I'm not saying "no, of course they aren't ". What I'm trying to say is, unless people make it obvious (the "she's a bitch" kind of bashing, for example) or say that it's their reasoning, we have no way to know why a person likes or dislikes a character. It's the broad generalization that bothers me.
no subject
As I said, I know a lot of people who dislike Rose because they felt a lot of things about her were racist towards Martha. And as you can see, there are hundred reasons, all of them valid about why you can dislike a character who is part of a minority.
This is not for you or for me to feel guilty about the characters we like or dislike. We may have valid reasons, we may have whatever reasons to dislike something.
And well, when we talk about politics in fandom, I think it's important to take into account that other male characters can be part of minorities too, things are more complicated of course (I don't mean that reasons for liking or disliking something have to be politicized, but I do think they take a part, whatever intend has the audience). What I meant is this (and it kinda derails the point of the post, because this is not what the OP is talking about, but anyway): people may not felt anything about gender or the characters gender, but when you (not you, general "you") have a fandom where most of the popular characters are male and also white, cis, privileged, and you have this single female character who isn't popular and who annoys you for purely aesthetic reasons (like "Mary Sueness, whining, weak, etc."), and you have no problem with still fangirling the white cis, unber-popular male without a second thought... anyway, I'm not someone who will tell you what to like or not to (heck, it's not something I can do anyway), but I do find some things problematic, whatever your reasons may be.
For me, and this is my experience alone, I like to reflect on the show, like, "this writing may be problematic for the way it depicts women," instead of falling into the "women are useless" discourse, which may not be what you intend, but it plays into a big trope of fiction and fandom. And again, you may not intend it, but it has impact. Specially if your (general you again) reasons for dislike her (or him, depending of which ism we are talking about) fall into the excuses people use to dismiss characters of a minority while still loving their cis, white, male counterparts who share the same traits. I think a lot depends of the context, of course, but we can have discourses which contribute into sexism/racism/cissexism in fandom without intending to do so. Sometimes, not always, of course.
Yeah, you are free to disagree, of course. I'm not going to tell you how to live your fandom life, and I don't think these kind of posts have that purpose. They are written to make people think about something (isms inside fandom), but if you disagreee or aren't interested, of course no one will tell you to justify yourself, you just skip them.
no subject
Sé que esos problemas existen. Sé que estos posts tienen un lugar en el fandom. Lo que me choca es que lo que se asume como default es que la gente elige sus personajes preferidos por cuestiones de género (o de raza o de sexualidad o lo que sea que esté tratando el post) y con suerte hay un comentario del tipo de "ah, y capaz para algunas personas es por gusto personal".
Es como si yo asumiera que a todas las personas que no les gusta Martha es porque es una mujer negra enamorada de un hombre blanco, y no porque, no sé, les parece que su historia de amor estuvo mal escrita, o no les gustó para dónde fue su desarrollo de personaje, o simplemente no les llamó la atención.
Creo que la diferencia entre nosotras está en cómo enfocamos a la ficción. Por ejemplo: who annoys you for purely aesthetic reasons
Eso me llamó la atención porque bueno, sí, las razones por las que a uno le gusta o no un personaje son de ese tipo. Después puedo analizar el canon, puedo tratar de ver cuáles son las implicaciones políticas/sociales, pero en el momento en que lo estoy viendo mi reacción a los personajes va a ser quién me cayó bien o mal, y seguramente no tenga idea de quién es popular o no en el fandom hasta que me meta. Y por eso me choca tanto cuando se asume que la gente va con una mirada política desde el principio. ETA:... las razones por las que a MÍ me gusta o no. Acá sí hablaba de mi experiencia personal.
O sea. Me parecen posts interesantes. Me parece que tienen razón en muchas cosas y que es importante pensar en estos temas. Pero igual no deja de chocarme que la mayoría de las veces sí suenan a "está mal que te guste un hombre blanco, está mal que no te guste una mujer, y si los géneros estuvieran invertidos SEGURO que tus opiniones también".
no subject
Y bueno, que te puedo decir che, en ese post se hablaba de politica, de que hay problemas con personajes femeninos, y si, de hecho en la mayoría de los posts de esta clase te encontras comentario tipo, " pero yo no veo género/raza/whatever" y bueno che, felicidades, pero lastimosamente juegan un gran rol para mucho gente, a veces no depende de vos, y a veces (mas que menos) no se habla de tu visión personal (a veces sí, pero como en este caso decía algo como que "a la gente que les gusta personajes masculinos pero odiaría lo mismo en un personaje femenino" y si vos sentis que no sos vos... no sos vos, no se trata de vos), se habla de un problema sistémico.
Disculpame, estaremos de acuerdo o no, pero la mayoría de la gente que es feliz sin diferenciar entre género y raza, que se yo... pues bien, que puedo yo hacer. Seguirán existiendo esas cosas, hagamos lo que hagamos.
El asunto es que eso de "sos el problema," bueno, cuando hablamos de política en fandom muchas veces hablamos de como sería el fandom para minorías, y sinceramente no quiero hacer un 101, pero el fandom "default" como se conoce no está hecho para minorías. Así que si bueno, tenés pensamientos machistas, racistas, sexistas, sos el problema. Ahora si no los tenés, no te tomes por aludida, si no se habla de vos, simplemente no se habla de vos, y puede hablarse de algo sistémico que a vos no te interesa o te choca por a o b... bueno, tendrás tus razones, no me voy a poner a opinar al respecto.
Así que estemos en desacuerdo, como te digo, para mí, la política existe, quieráse o no, y hay gente que le golpea más que a otra. Yo no voy a cambiar lo que pensás, pero vos no podés cambiar lo que pienso, y es algo muy pervasivo eso de "me estás oprimiendo expresando tus opiniones politizadas" (aka: "arruinando mi squee"). Lo que no hago, como a vos te puede joder eso, a mi me pueden joder otras cosas.
no subject
Y te digo la verdad, ese último párrafo me dolió bastante, porque me parece que hay una diferencia ENORME entre "me choca" y "me estás oprimiendo". Si realmente quisiera ignorar las opiniones politizadas ni siquiera hubiera venido a comentar.
no subject
No, te digo, mi culpa, la verdad es que desde el comienzo que mucho no entiendo de que va esto, así que probablemente soy yo asumiendo.
No sí, es cierto, estoy confundida, la verdad, mucho no sé qué y por qué estamos discutiendo. Justamente iba a hacer un edit sobre eso cuando me respondiste.
No, y disculpas, era yo asumiendo porque a veces no tengo mucha paciencia y tengo a asumir. Eso siempre me ha pasado. La verdad lo siento, fue mi culpa. No quería responderte algo que no dijiste.
no subject
No te preocupes, en serio, al menos me quedo más tranquila porque en serio estaba tratando de no decir ninguna barbaridad.
no subject
no subject
no subject
no subject
no subject
Igualmente, me alegra que podamos discutir eso relativamente bien (dejando a un lado que nos confundimos o lo que sea y terminó mal, pero bue XD). Don't worry, ve adormir.
no subject