And then you ask me why I distrust white people

[la_vie_noire]

Dr. Debbie Reese who teaches in UIUC's American Indian Studies program has a wonderful blog called American Indians in Children's Literature. I have been following it for a while, it's damn good.

She discuss things like Elizabeth Bird's survey of Top 100 Children's Novels. She has conversations about covers and race. She talks about mainstream books, she talks about media, she talks about Twilight and Avatar!

This Sunday she was discussing a problematic quote of Neil Gaiman, this one:

"The great thing about having an English cemetery is I could go back a very, very, very long way. And in America, you go back 250 years (in a cemetery), and then suddenly you’ve got a few dead Indians, and then you don’t have anybody at all, unless you decide to set it up in Maine or somewhere and sneak in some Vikings.”

She dissected very nicely what was wrong with it. Kynn also talked about it in her journal and called it for what it was: neil gaiman's racist fail.

Then Neil Gaiman heared about it. This was his response:

I was replying to a specific question about European-style graveyards in the US and who you'd find in them and why I didn't set THE GRAVEYARD BOOK in America, which was that they didn't go back far enough, and they didn't give me the dead people I wanted for the story to work. Obviously (or obviously to me) I wasn't saying or implying that the country was uninhabited prior to the arrival of Europeans, or trying to somehow render invisible hundreds of millions of people who had inhabited this content for tens of thousands of years -- especially after having very specifically written about them, and about that timespan in American Gods.

(And, of course, European Graveyards in the US go back much further than 250 years.)

A more sensible answer to why I didn't set The Graveyard Book in America was that I didn't want to, but I had a microphone stuck in front of my face by the Hornbook in front of a crowd of people at Book Expo or ALA, and I babbled.

Also apologies to any Icelandic or Norwegian readers who are offended by my imprecision. Obviously none of the Newfoundland settlers were Vikings.

It wasn't that bad until the last part. He apologized to Icelandic and Norwegian readers! The thing about Native American dead people was Debbie not knowing his "context."

Then he twitted about it. Kynn was a twit and people were just looking for racism and you know how the ballad goes.

Then his fans arrived at Debbie's blog.

And this is the point of my post.

Race as an issue was totally erased. Debbie was being over emotional. A white guy told her to "calm down," some people were saying she was looking for "fame," some people who were "part Indian" (uhm) told her she was just seeing things and they were part Indian so they were right and she was wrong. She was looking for things to be offended. Again, race wasn't an issue unless someone called POC racist names.

So white people were doing what white people do best when they are being called on their racist attitudes: erasing systemic racism and trying to put POC who talk about it in their places. Everything else was an issue; but not race, never race. There should be no repercussions for white people's actions against POC. In this era, in which "Racism" is being looked down, the worst offense for a white person is to be called "racist," worse than being racist. You cannot call someone on their privilege. It's really the worst, worse than anything, worse than genocide. And then you know who dominates our spaces.

The funny thing is that race was always an issue and I'm going to show you the latest comments to that entry to illustrate my point:

NewOZlibrarian said:

In context, I'm rather certain that there wouldn't have been terribly many Indians buried in European style graveyards before European settlement...so "a few" is probably an accurate representation of the number of Indians in European-style graveyards over 250 years ago. Not having a particularly thorough understanding of American history (since I come from a country with its own systematically institutionalised genocide to concern itself with) I could be wrong.

But whatevs, it's the internet. Everyone's wrong some time...just that on the internet there's more people with nothing better to do than call you out on it.

And when it comes to representing american-indians...the whole quote boils down to the fact that he set his book in an entirely different country, thus avoiding representing them at all (a fiendish plot, no doubt, to rob them of just representation!). I suppose sometimes you just have to cope with the fact that you're not relevant to the plot.

Or perhaps he should have gone out of his way to represent the original inhabitants of his adopted country for no other reason than to avoid an inflammatory blog post several years after publication...since he'd be safe, as you'd never have read the book anyway.

See, this person says they can make their ignorant remarks on Native American's genocide without any guilt because they have their own country's genocide to concern themselves with! So no one can blame them if they are wrong about Native American genocide! What is white privilege... ah. Being insensitive about POC genocide without being blamed, that is white privilege. (And, "I suppose sometimes you just have to cope with the fact that you're not relevant to the plot." Really, do I need to respond to this.)

And what is more important? Not attacking Neil Gaiman is more important. So this person can talk about genocide without really knowing, but Debbie is inflammatory because she talked about Gaiman's ignorance. Her entry was "inflammatory." Neil Gaiman had no responsibility in badly representing Native Americans; his only concern should be white peoples representation, who are the most represented racial group in western media. Edit: I noticed this person doesn't specify their gender anywhere, and I just assumed they were male.

Liz Pennies says:

Debbie, I think you have good intentions, but fear all this kind of nitpicking does is teach others to put up fences and cause a continuation of name calling between races.

Point in case?
"Evidence of my point about American/English ignorance." Dissected, as you did Neil's sentence, shows how you have seemed to classify the whole of the American/English peoples as nothing but ignorant.

If you try hard enough one can take any conversation and find SOMETHING racist within in SOME way. Neil's was such a small comment. Was it worded poorly? Perhaps. As was yours.

I won't defend whether or not Neil has prejudices. I do not personally know the man. But in addressing his ONE sentence, I do believe he was simply trying to illustrate that cemeteries in America do not have the same feel as ones in Europe. Personally I would agree. I've visited both styles of grave sites, and anyone that has, understands the difference as well as the context in which he was making this statement. U.S. graveyards simply do not have the same atmosphere as the ones in Europe.

Ah. Do I need to say something? Gaiman's intend is more important than the constant erasure and misrepresentation of Native American genocide. And white people know best. Always know best. His comment was "small", by whose standard? White woman's standard. Not going to say more.

Then there is someone called Sarah H. who is trying to make Debbie read all of Gaiman's other books to show her what a great heart he has. I pass that one.

Then. The most interesting one that shows how white dominance works in today's world:

Alma Alexander said...

I was born in old Europe. I know all about church graveyards where there are gravestones so old that the information that used to be carved on them is worn down to nubs and it's impossible to read or decipher any more - and you will never know again who lies in that grave. Such graves tend to RATHER OLDER than any in the "New World", by definition, because European-style burials which the white folks brought over the water with them are by definition MUCH younger than the graves left behind in Europe. And before that, in the country that would become America, for all the PHSYCICAL markers that were left behind (in the sensibilities of the colonist folk and in their knowledge and understanding) those colonists would have no idea, unless directly involved in a massacre themselves, just how many Indians there were or had been before they got there and how and where their dead were disposed of. When Gaiman said "before that there was nobody at all" he meant that there were few bodies buried in "proper" graves with "proper" memorials and gravestones, before the white settlers arrived and brought that idea with them. In such graves, three or four hundred years ago in America, Gaiman was right - there was pretty much "nobody at all".

There are far too many reasons out there to take offence at idiots who really have an agenda to push. Please, please, let's stop trying to scratch out something offensive at EVERYTHING anybody utters, even when there was no real reason for it at all once you unpack a remark or put it into its context...

Again. Race erasure at the end. But do you see what I'm seeing? I was born in "Old Europe" thus I know better than you, Nambe Pueblo's Dr Debbie Reese, about Native American genocide and burials. So does Neil Gaiman. The white man. He was right, I'm right because I was born in Europe. You don't know about your people as I do.

And you know what, white people? I'm tired of you. Of all of you. I may be over emotional, I may be "looking for racism in everywhere." Yeah, I'm the POC who just want to have a feast on your white innocent asses while seeing you spill holy white tears. Whatever you want. But I will be damned if I'm going to let myself be silenced because you don't like hearing about the shit you do. Yeah, what I say about your fucking white idols erasing genocide and its victims all over again.

We are over emotional, angry, uppity if we talk. You are just people going on their lives without nothing to be blamed. This is why I'm tired of privileged "white allies" and the shit they put when they see someone they like being called on. Kynn had a lot more to lose than you, cis white allies. Debbie has a lot more to lose than you.

So if you don't want to read this. Please, get away from me, it's likely I don't want to talk to you. (Yeah, there were white people in that entry being "allies" to Debbie while telling her what she should have written instead of talking about that "insignificant" remark, seriously, didn't you learn anything? You don't decide what is important and what isn't.)

And trolls. I don't care about you, nor about your intentions. Your intentions are worth shit to the racism every POC experiences. As I said, I'm the "mean POC." Come here, and you will be ridiculed. Yeah, you are ignorant! Guess what, you aren't born knowing everything. So; you can be quiet and listen, or you can show your privileged ass.

---

Here is a good post: yeloson's Words, Context, Power.

Comments

[alcesverdes]

'_'

I had a microphone stuck in front of my face by the Hornbook in front of a crowd of people at Book Expo or ALA, and I babbled.

When people are off guard is when they show they're true colors.

Note to self: stick to dead authors.

[alcesverdes]

*their.
I can type, promise D|

[la_vie_noire]

Pretty much.

[the_future_modernes]

what a past couple of days its been!

[la_vie_noire]

I know. Thinking on this just made my head hurt.

[beyourwings]

Uuuuuuuuuuuuugh esos comentarios. No es que no saben cómo poner las cosas en perspectiva porque su perspectiva de por sí ya está demasiado chueca. Uuuuuuuuuugh.

[la_vie_noire]

No, y es que tienen que ir a decírselo a ella. Porque ella necesita educarse con respecto a esos temas que ellos por supuesto conocen muy bien!


Ay dios.

[beyourwings]

Yo me acuerdo que ayer mientras iba bajando y leyendo los comentarios esperaba que ella no los viera o algo y luego vi que le respondió a alguien más abajo y. Ugh, lo que tuvo/tiene que soportar Dx

[la_vie_noire]

Pues sí, ya los cerró, y bueno, al contrario de lo que esta persona decia, la mujer de "inflammatory" no tiene nada, así que no sé ni si los va a responder.

[beyourwings]

Claro que no, si estaba siendo completamente civilized, man. Otro ya los habría puesto en su lugar y con ganas.

[la_vie_noire]

Pues sí, la verdad. Y con qué ganas.

[pseudo_tsuga]

Ugh, Neil Gaiman. I'm sure he and Amanda Palmer will be happy together as they both don't stop to think about their words and then deny it could ever be hurtful. Thanks for linking to Debbie's blog; it looks great.

[la_vie_noire]

Yeah, yeah. They are both blinded by privilege.

Yeah, it really is great.

[outou]

I wish that, one of these days, a white author/actor/celebrity of any sort will actually apologize after making a racially-insensitive comment. Neil Gaiman of all people should have realized that it would have been best for him to say, "I'm sorry. That was really stupid and insensitive, as well as ignorant of the entire history of Native Americans," instead of trying to cover for himself.

Thank you for the links to Dr. Reese's blog, as well as to the Amazon page for Conquest.

[la_vie_noire]

Yeah, it's as you say. If only privileged people say they are sorry before sending their hordes...

You are welcome!

[annaham]

WHY, FELLOW WHITE FOLKS, WHY?

No wonder you feel like you can't trust white people. I had a similar experience with my critique of Evelyn Evelyn (derailing, talk of intent excusing offensiveness, threats aimed at me just for speaking up, et cetera); of course, it's not the EXACT same, but after that mess I am now pretty much done with giving abled fans and other uber-privileged people who just want to tell marginalized people how things "really" work any sort of benefit of the doubt. That's one of the saddest parts--so many of them really *aren't* listening, and would rather spend many words defending their idols, and their privilege, instead of considering points of view other than those of the dominant majority (whether white or abled).

*high-fives you in solidarity*

[la_vie_noire]

Ah, yes, it's pretty much that. You are very so much right.

Thank you!

[wingstodust]

Seriously Neil Gaiman, you stay classy. Same goes for Alma Alexander. I'm glad I never liked the works I tried out by you two.

Thank you for this post, and for dissecting the comments. I confess I couldn't bring myself to wade through all the comment threads. What little I saw was way too distressing and head-desk inducing.

[la_vie_noire]

Dude, is that Alma Alexander person a writer also? Ah well, someone I will never read!

I can't blame you, you know.

[penguinparity]

I came here via Seeking Avalon's blog.

Regardless of how offensive Gaiman's original comment was, the responding wave of white privilege from people coming to his defense is infuriating.

I wrote out a pretty long comment expressing my disgust at the abundance of white privilege being directed at Dr. Reese's post, part of which included looking at my own white privilege. I deleted most of it after reminding myself that one of the most important things an ally can do is to show support and not make it about themselves.

So, I agree and will be writing about this on my own blog.

[la_vie_noire]

Regardless of how offensive Gaiman's original comment was, the responding wave of white privilege from people coming to his defense is infuriating.

Well, that was definitely the worst part for me. The irony is the claim of "censorship" or whatever when telling Debbie she shouldn't have analyzed the problems with Gaiman's statement.

It's fine. I think more people should talk about things like these.

[dagas_isa]

That blog is beautiful.

Also, ugh at all the fail that comes in when people call famous authors on their privilege.

[la_vie_noire]

Yeah, it is!

That exactly is what happens.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

the condescension of those comments is appalling, indeed :( and fuck Neil Gaiman, he's being a twit about this, and he should know better.

I'm sorry for the behaviour of my fellow Europeans and white "allies".

[la-vie-noire.livejournal.com]

Yeah, as everyone, he should. But I also won't expect anything better from him.

Yeah, don't worry, it wasn't you. But it's exactly rare either.

[(Anonymous)]

I am not proud of this and think it was offensive of me to do in retrospect.

Once when I was very young I portrayed my very-Caucasian, gringa self as a black woman on an internet forum in an argument about racism. I learned that the second I said I was black (and a woman, double whammy) everyone responded to any post with the least sign of anger or emotion in it like I was a two-year-old throwing a temper tantrum. As someone who totally pulled the "if you were just nicer white people would listen because we are totes reasonable" line before, it caused me significant shame to realize that we aren't and we wouldn't.

It is a sign of how invidious white privilege is that I couldn't just believe black women when they said that this happens but had to go confirm it.

[(Anonymous)]

p.s. my anonymous comment was meant to point out how I had been a demonstration asshole and was surprised to realize the scope of my own assholery, not to act like this is a new finding re: white people or acceptable methods. I don't know why it's so hard for us to get it through our heads that POC wouldn't just invent these narratives of oppression to make us white people feel guilty for no good reason. Oh wait, it's because we derive enormous power and privilege from acting like we got where we are in the world by being the deservingist.

And now I am committing white-person concern troll sin number 458: treating a person of color's blog like a confession box. And I apologize for that one too and will now STFU.